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Colin B
United Kingdom
225 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 10:50:38
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I'm with GoBal on this. Ol'Dex is a man who knows his stuff and he has clearly given the matter some thought and changed his position since his first comment.
So, what kind of substance abuse would we, hypothetically, be talking about? Are some parents nipping down to Holland and Barrett for those supplements bodybuilders put in their cereal, milkshake or whatever to help a youngster 'bulk up' or is there some secret, sinister, scientific skulduggery going on in the world of junior tennis?
I'd definitely advise caution when going by physical change alone though. As I said before, I have four grown up daughters - one day you turn around and your little girl's all growed up!
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stephen
United Kingdom
4198 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 12:02:07
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I don't know what I'm doing posting this, I told myself I wouldn't post in this thread and I surely don't have any light to throw on the matter.
Like some others, I haven't been able to work out what species Pandora belongs to.
I have zero medical knowledge (so don't trust what comes next, do your own research). I looked up growth hormones (wikipedia, of course!) after Pandora's post. The facial bone growth symptom is called acromegaly. It's an adult condition. In sub-adults, you'd be more likely to see excessive height gain. Also, overuse to that extent would be associated with other symptoms that would not be conducive to playing high level tennis.
W.r.t testing, here's something about the NTC: http://www.lta.org.uk/articles/About-Us/SportsScience/
quote:
The Sports Medicine and Science Centre at the National Tennis Centre offers Britain’s elite players
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* Daily monitoring of hydration and physical readiness
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* Educational advisory service including Anti Doping
I believe the daily monitoring involves daily urine samples. I don't want to overstretch the logic, but it sounds to me like quite an uncomfortable environment for a drugs cheat. |
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jemma277
623 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 14:46:26
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| The idea that any parent can pump their child full of growth hormone for financial gain/success shows that they have totally lost any sense of sanity. |
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dads taxi
United Kingdom
106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 18:31:04
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This is a rediculous thread no parent in thier right mind is gonna start using ehancing drugs surely although it is well known that messi at barcelona was taking growth hormone, I refuse to belive that british tennis parents would be pumping their kids full of anything apart from Rego,powerade or lucozade or at a stretch Metatone.
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GoBaltacha
845 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2010 : 19:25:21
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I agree it is a ridiculous thread , but it is surely riducluous to say Spainish parenta would do it but British parents woudn't - that 's old Raj school mentality!!!!
Sting - "believe me when I say to you I hope the Russians love their children too" |
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interested
1497 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 09:43:57
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Growth hormone cannot make normal healthy kids taller as adults(99.9% of the population would gain nothing by using it at all)
It can only help kids with a growth hormone deficiency get to their normal achieveable height - nothing more
If used on a child who does not have a growth hormone deficiency all it would do would speed up growth as a child but leave the child with a final height no taller at all than what they would achieve anyway in the long run - all of this is down to genes and bone density
If it were possible to create taller "long term " adults using growth hormnone drugs then it would be getting used in almost every sport as well as in the fashion world and even normal life for wealthy parents who know that taller people sometimes get advantages in life
Other drugs can give energy and allow muscle development - steroids etc but cannot increase height
Messi (as discussed above) the footballer suffered from growth hormone deficiency and famously was given treatment by Barcelona when they took him on as a kid - clubs like Barcelona could afford to put all of their youth players on growth hormones if they made any difference to final height
Messi without the growth hormone would have never grown to his achieveable height as his body was not producing growth hormone naturally which is extremely rare
But without a growth hormone deficiency in the first place any parent or club would simply be wasting their time and creating far more problems for the child than allowing them to grow at the normal rate that a child should develop at
If you have a "normal" child - their bone age can "normally" fluctuate by upto two years backwards and two years forwards - hence the vast difference in heights you see at tennis tournaments amongst kids of more or less tha same age
i.e a 12 year old can "normally" have a bone age of a 10 year old upto the bone age of a 14 year old
Hence the huge difference in heights you see in children of the same age - they are at vastly different stages of their own indivdiual growth cycle despite being the same age
The 10 year old bone age child has an extra 4 years of growing left in which to try and catch the 14 year old bone age child up
Yes you can speed it up but unless you are a trophy hunter for junior tennis trophies you would be gaining nothing for the child in the adult game
If you want muscles for sport like tennis all it takes is a bit of hard work - but muscles in tennis have their own advantages and disadvantages anyway
Muscles are needed far more in other more physical sports to be honest
Hope that makes sense |
Edited by - interested on 27 Jul 2010 10:02:24 |
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TheRed
United Kingdom
294 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 10:10:39
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| Wow Interested me thinks you may be a Medical man of some sorts. I have been around Junior tennis for a long time and in all that time the only thing i saw was a girl spray stuff on her tongue to calm herself down don't know what the stuff was but can get over the counter at any good chemist so i was told. She is still playing competitive tennis but can still throw the odd wobbly now and again. |
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olddexter
1065 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 10:18:58
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| the problem here is that the more posters keep saying what a silly subject, never happens, wnot never happen etc etc, the more i think hang on, lets not be so head in the sand on this one, of course it will happen, its sport, there is investment involved , money involved, and before anyone thinks i'm going over the top with that statement, get real guys, in every sport drugs will be used and nearly all of those dont offer the vast rewards that senior tennis does. and in no other sport, and kids football does attract loud, abusive parents who think they know it all, but tennis parents are in a totally different league to those dads,some tennis parents are obbsesive beyond believe, and i certainly wouldn't trust some of them not to tinker with steriods etc |
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interested
1497 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 10:43:11
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steroids to add bulk - I don't know about - I guess there are some players who need them - I believe there were always rumours around Nadal when he first emerged(he would be mad to be taking steroids though now in his postion) - would lose an entire career overnight
But to be fair his body shape is not the norm in tennis and clearly you don't need bulk to hit the ball hard
But I agree with od if there were clear advantages to be gained drugs would be taken in tennis
The one obvious advantage you would aim for in tennis is definitely height but like I say you cannot create additional height from growth hormone but purely speed the growth up and allow the height to be reached earlier which causes more problems than benefits to be honest
If there was a growth hormone drug where you could actually add a couple of inches in adult height I think tennis would be awash with growth hormone taking if I am being honest
In that way I can see exactly where od is coming from
But that drug doesn't exist yet thank god
If anyone out there seriously thinks they have seen a Junior player grow a lot of inches recently through drugs maybe they have indeed taken the growth hormone and done all their growing they are ever going to do but in the space of a few months
I would like to think anybody who knew about that drug would let the player know that is all that would happen though ??
It would mess up their balance, timing, movement even more than the normal growth spurts do
Short term they gain height quickly - long term no gain at all
Maybe there are junior players out there taking the growth hormone drug who don't even realise the facts about it - that wouldn't surprise me - the drug is very expensive and if someone with money comes looking to spend it to get an "edge" then there may be some unscrupulous drug suppliers who would happily take that money off them
As an aside - any parent of a child can have their actual bone age and density analysed and then be given an extremely accurate prediction of future height than through normal methods based simply on parents height, childs current height and current "birth" age, The bone density and bone age can very accurately predict future height
If any parent is worried or just intrigued about their childs height - they may very well find they have a 14 year old who is still at their 12 year old height or vice versa due to where their body is in the growth cycle
Bone age is very similar to how children enter puberty at vastly different ages |
Edited by - interested on 27 Jul 2010 18:10:40 |
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DiamondAces
29 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 14:11:53
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Interesting topic.
For those of us that get around on some major junior international tournaments, from time to time, but not a whole lot, you can see the odd player (and yes, sorry to say, but most of the time East European)that has a muscle structure that is - or at least seems - unnatural. I am not a specialist at all, but I think I can spot the difference between an athlete that acquires an athletic and muscular body through years of adapted exercice and those that want to get there "in a hurry" (and use other means).
I often wondered why those don't get caught(during drugtests at tournaments for instance, a bit like WADA, but then on the junior circuit).
The only thing I can think of, is that the parents (maybe coaches too?) start with these "supplements" at such an early age that at age 14 or so, nothing can be traced anymore. I don't know if this is even possible, or could have an influence, but it is a thought.
Again, cases like this are exceptions, but I have seen a few around. Too bad for these players, as I don't think they have a chance to ever make it in the pro circuit. |
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interested
1497 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 21:19:55
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My daughter has a very muscular physique for a girl
Stems from being a gymnast from a young age and lots of pull ups since etc
We are actually stopping her from doing pull ups now as she was getting muscle bound and tight - can't keep her off the monkey bars at school though - or walking on her hands at every opportunity !!
(She is only just ten years old)
I like Stosur's physique myself - there is a player who has put the hard work in
For the amount of muscle you could argue you might need for tennis I seriously don't think you would need drugs - I don't even think you need weights
Pullups and core exercises will do the trick if that is the way you want your player to go |
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olddexter
1065 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 08:22:50
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| think you are missing the point. many athletes /sportsman dont take drugs just for muscle build. many take then so they can train harder and longer and through injury, so therefore drugs would apply to tennis very much so! |
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interested
1497 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 09:10:45
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by olddexter[/i]
[br]think you are missing the point. many athletes /sportsman dont take drugs just for muscle build. many take then so they can train harder and longer and through injury, so therefore drugs would apply to tennis very much so!
That is true
Just think in tennis there are far less advantages to be gained than in many other sports
But like every sport there will be some people somewheretrying to gain an edge no doubt
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How common is drug abuse in the junior game?
